Thug Life

Are you concerned that your sexual assault conviction and proclivity for shooting people and getting shot at might scuttle your dream of having a Peace Garden named after you?

Fear not. You live in the right city.


Not only is Atlanta the City Too Busy To Hate, it’s also the City Too Busy Grasp The Irony Of Naming A Peace Garden After An Unrepentant Thug.

Tonight at 6pm, Tupac Shakur’s mother will be unveiling a larger-than-life statue of the slain rapper in the Peace Garden of the of the soon-to-be-opened Shakur Center For The Arts.

I ain’t mad at ya. All I’m doing is saying.

36 Comments so far

  1. oneside (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 4:57 pm

    I encourage everyone to take a look at Tupac’s life (not just a “thug image”) and the powerful messages he spread about race relations in this country.

    From the entry re: “proclivity for shooting people “:
    “In October 1993, Shakur came upon two off-duty police officers whom he perceived as harassing a black motorist on the side of the road in Atlanta. Shakur got into a fight with them and shot both officers (one in the leg, one in the buttocks). He faced serious charges until it was discovered that both officers were intoxicated during the incident and were using weapons stolen out of an evidence locker. The charges against Shakur were dismissed.”
    for one.

    Or maybe we could just throw up another uncontested Christopher Columbus statue and “three cheers for genocide!”

  2. Andrew Sawczyn (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 5:06 pm

    Well, seems like Tupac was certainly justifiable in shooting the police officers. He must have used his super powers of mind reading to determine that the weapons were stolen and the officers intoxicated.

  3. Andisheh Nouraee (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 5:10 pm

    Oh, so the sexual assault was okay then. At least we know where you draw the line.

    Tupac Shakur did not do a goddamn thing for race relations. He was a careless, brutish idiot who happened to gorgeous, charismatic and talented rapper. He’s a shining example of how our culture values celebrity over character and accomplishments. Putting up a statue for him in a Peace Garden is the hip-hop equivalent of idiots walking around American shopping malls wearing Che Guevara t-shirts.

    If you want memorialize someone for his contributions to society, I suggest starting with the people WHO HAVEN’T REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED THEIR INABILITY TO CONTROL THEIR VIOLENT IMPULSES.

  4. P. Pot (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 5:13 pm

    Columbus was a hack.

  5. anonymous (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 6:30 pm

    Right on, brother. I dig Tupac’s music, but you are right on point on the irony of keeping his memory alive in a peace garden…

  6. plum drank (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 7:19 pm

    man this is some o’reilly bullshit- pac called for peace so many times, but he also lived a short, violent life. this does not diminish his message to me. his rape conviction was political bullshit, it has as much truth as republicans’s rape accusations thrown at clinton in the mid 90s. pac was the most socially conscious rapper to ever make it to his level of fame. should we throw out MLK day cuz he cheated on his wife? whoever mentioned columbus is right, how many historical figures and presidents and politicians tortured and killed during wartime but are now commemorated lovingly?? go fight a real battle you racist coward we still got americans dying in iraq and new orleans but youd rather come with wack right-wing smears at a mother using the music and talent of her slain child to heal the community.

  7. plum drank (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 7:25 pm

    “i didnt create the thug life, i diagnosed it”

  8. Andisheh Nouraee (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 9:41 pm

    Getting called a racist coward by an anonymous poster who favorably compares a thuggish, buffoon pop star with the genius who overturned a political system of oppression without throwing a punch. I’m honored.

    Seriously, though, I’m so glad you brought up MLK, because the parallels between his life and Tupac Shakur’s are remarkable.

    MLK — Brilliantly led a non-violent political movement secured African-Americans full political rights for the first time.

    Tupac — Starred in a movie with Janet Jackson.

    MLK — Authored the great book “Why We Can’t Wait”

    Tupac — Had the words “Fuck The World” tattooed on his back.

    MLK — Risked his life while leading a voting-rights march from Selma to Montgomery.

    Tupac — Risked his life by bragging on MTV that he fucked Faith Evans.

    It’s like they were twins or something.

  9. plum drank (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 10:48 pm

    look asshole who do you think resonates more with people today? MLK was a great man but had flaws, that is why i compared him with 2pac. i couldve just have easily said jimmy carter, do you protest the carter center cuz of his role in the kwangju massacre and coddling hussein?? oh wait, carter’s white. and you could make a chart like that for anyone (“MLK — coerced two 18-yr old girls into a motel 6 threesome” “tupac — had a #1 hit single protesting government indifference to black poverty” etc etc etc) but i guess that doesnt matter to a wannabe-republican crony like you, a tribute to pac in a city that’s over 50% black means less than “the futureheads” or whatever trendy haircut white-power rock band youre shilling in creative loafing this week. ohh and yeah this aint anonymous i just never put down my site address cuz the comments said no blogspot – email or you can actually get out of cobb county or little 5 points for once & cmon over to bankhead to talk that shit about pac, outside of your safe pussy ass “blogger meet-ups”, on my street and to my face.

  10. Greg (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 11:14 pm

    ohhhhhhhhh…. it’s about to get hectic up in this piece…

    Seriously, why is there a “peace garden” springing up in Atlanta for a Bronx born guy who spent most of his adult life yelling “westside”?

    oh, he was also weak as far as MC’ing skills go…

  11. plum drank (unregistered) on September 13th, 2005 @ 11:20 pm

    pac had a residence in ATL and his mother afeni, his sister and cousins & his group outlawz all stay here now

  12. plum drank (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 9:15 am

    thank you oneside. andisheh i want to clear some shit up here- like the poster “sterling sterl” said already, MLK did not “bring down a system of oppression” or give “full political rights” to blacks. do the survivors of katrina look like they had “full political rights” to you? this is just another one of your republican talking points- all racism ended in the ’60s, anybody can succeed if they try hard enough, why won’t those ungrateful negroes on welfare stop complaining! your dumbass chart after i compared pac to MLK is just unfunny bigoted cheapshots and weirdo MLK hero worship in the typical guilty “i have black friends” sense. “i respect martin luther king, but…” every racist knows that praising MLK is the perfect excuse for blatant predjudiced statements about modern black leaders and radicals, even charlton heston does it. and your pac disses- “starred in a film with janet jackson”, yeah motherfucker and what? are world leaders disqualified from politics cuz they meet with that man from u2? oh wait, hes white again. pac got acclaim for his acting (and based his rap voice on the speeches of dr king himself, something you would know if you actually gave a shit about his work beyond repeating tipper gore/pmrc “thug life” smears) but even so i wasnt comparing them to say they were politically equal, i compared 2 similar aspects of their lives- just like when i compared you to bill o’reilly, i didnt mean you get an audience of millions of devoted listeners or any political influence at all, i just meant yall are both borderline racist hacks prone to repitition of right-wing talking points

  13. Aradia (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 9:50 am

    Holy. Shit.

  14. Aradia (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 10:04 am

    That last comment was just about the fact that their actually naming a peace garden after Tupac. And I have to say I agree with Andisheh on most if not all of his comments. I think people have to get off the crutch that people are victims of thug life. I’m from Brooklyn, I’m non-white, and somehow I avoided selling drugs and shooting people. I’m aware that everyone has different circumstances, but where there’s a will there’s a way. Where are the admirable people who are worshipped by society? It’s true – America values celebrity and fame over character and I find that sad and embarrassing.

  15. Oneside (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 10:51 am

    Sorry for the crosspost, but I think Aradia’s comments and recent post shed more light on this topic. Writing:

    “I certainly agree that it would be nice to pump gas in East Atlanta or the Ponce area without being harassed for change. Somehow the bums here are more bothersome than the ones in NY. But crime is an ever-present aspect of city life, and in a way I miss being around people who aren’t so sheltered that every little thing on the street freaks them out.”

    Aside from record breaking hypocracy (complain about poor people asking for money/complain about people complaining about being bothered by such things), this is a HUGE problem in Atlanta. The idea that one claims to be “harassed” by people struggling to survive makes me want to cry! This is why the racist panhandling ordinance passed. Now I don’t know you Aradia, but when I’ve heard “being harassed” in this context, these “quality of life” ordinance arguments (whose life??), it translates to “I am scared of poor people.”

    Tupac stood as someone who tried hard to help people struggle and speak honestly and beautifully (check out some of his stuff maybe!).
    He made mistakes I’m sure, he was human, but to hold strong, unapologetic black men to a standard higher than sainthood stinks bad to me.

  16. Andisheh Nouraee (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 10:59 am

    PlumDrank — You make so little sense that it’s hard to know where to respond, but what the heck, I’ll give it a try.

    1. Regardless of how you feel about his music or acting, Tupac Shakur was prone to petty and temper-driven acts of violence and sexual aggression. On the list of people who deserve statues in Peace Gardens, he’s a bit far down the list.

    2. Political rights means legal equality. Racism was explicitly part of the legal code of this country until the Civil Rights movement, led by MLK. Now, it is not. It doesn’t mean that racism has vanished and that actively and passively racist leaders and institutions. I never stated or implied anything of the sort. Condemning me for words I never used and ideas that I never implied is only the right-wing/Bill O’Reilly aspect of this entire exchange.

    3. You’re absolutely correct to say that people throw out MLK as a rhetorical shield against accusations of racism. But I wasn’t defending myself from the charge and I’m not gonna stoop to doing so just because you keep repeating the word. Therefore, your assertion has no relevance. I only mentioned MLK in response to you.

    4. Here’s the web page with the official list of Right Wing Talking Points:

    Please name one that I’m repeating.

    5. That you can’t have a debate without “inviting” me to your street for a physical confrontation supports my argument, not yours. If you want to have a verbal debate, I’m happy to — via blogs, telephone, or in person. If you want to have a physical debate, you need to go elsewhere for satisfaction.

    6. I don’t have any feelings one way or another about building a statue for Bono, however, two things are for certain about him. First, Bono has never stood in a room and watched idly as Suge Knight tried to force a man to drink urine before ordering his hired bullies beat the crap of the guy for refusing to drink the urine. Secondly, Bono has leveraged his celebrity on behalf of an international debt relief campaign that has actually saved lives. And for a decade and a half before he got involved in debt relief, he was one of Amnesty International’s most vehement and eloquent supporters.

    On second thought, let’s build Bono a peace statue.

    If you disagree, should I assume it’s because of your racist hatred of the Irish?

  17. Andisheh Nouraee (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 11:05 am

    >>but to hold strong, unapologetic black men to a standard higher than sainthood stinks bad to me.

    Disgust at someone for shooting people, standing by while your friends raped a woman, rapping about how much tougher you are than Puff Daddy and how you fucked your then friend Biggie Small’s wife — that’s a higher standard than sainthood?

  18. oneside (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 11:42 am

    (Insert condescending comment)
    Thats how its done right?

    1. So now there’s a list? I wonder how one gets on it or what message you have to promote to be near the top.. something to do with war (no shooting or sexual violence there!) must be.

    I don’t mean to make light of sexual violence against women at all. Its a serious issue that needs to be addressed by ALL men. I think IF (I’m no Tupac biographer, though apparently shit slung sticks) he participated in anything like this it should be noted and discussed for what it is – a deep problem in this country). The context of his life and words means something to a hell of a lot of people.

    2. “Political rights means legal equality” .. try paying your bills with a law. Try not being harassed by cops with a law. Try voting with a law (Hi Florida! Ohio! GA! DC!). On paper is a small dent, and by no means at all guarantees anything. While its nice to think MLK “led” the civil rights movement.. a quick read outside mcgrawhill’s texts will show a very different, vibrant movment. Again, to echo whats been said; MLK is AOK with white people. And take a look at when he was killed- right around the time he started linking the issues of poverty and racism and the MIC/PIC. See also: Tupac’s work.

    A comment about “racism against Irish” sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of racism and discrimination. Like reverse-racism. Racism is discrimination with POWER. Who holds power in this country over the Irish? Look around Atlanta and see who has power. Not figurehead power, real economic power. Not the people Tupac spoke of.

    And yes, you are holding him to a higher standard. Not taking into account who he is or where he came from. Bono never had to fight for a goddamn thing in his life and is louded for showing pity on the poor. Tupac called for action FROM the poor, without pity. I can’t look myself in the mirror and at the same time condemn a man for resisting authority that has been fucking with him from day one (your copious “shooting” references). And I can’t tear down a man for his art (lyrics) when I don’t like them. If I agreed 100% with any person on this planet I wouldn’t be human! As I said before, sexual violence is abhorrent, but I do not know what happened and can’t repeat rumors. If he served his time for a crime, he has done his time.

  19. Andisheh Nouraee (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 12:28 pm

    >>Not taking into account who he is or where he came from.

    So, basically, you’re saying that people of color who grow up poor are inherently prone to violence and cruelty and therefore they should be held to same standards as other people?

    I’m confused — are you sticking up for Tupac Shakur or auditioning for the Klan?

  20. oneside (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 12:47 pm


    My comment was speaking to your “disgust” at “shooting people”, as though he was a gun waving lunatic. By “where he came from” I meant an environment of oppression where the police are not “protecting” or “serving” the community, where he has just cause to have been suspicious of their motives in that instance.

    You may be unaware of actual court cases where youth who were arrested for “resisting arrest” or in one case drug charges (in cases where youth ran when police approached, cops assume guilt, chase, arrest) had their arrests overturned because there was legitimacy that the neighborhood knew the cops around there were crooked and had justification for assuming they would be hassled (arrest is a hassle, I hope we can agree).

    I said no such thing at all about inheritance and that is a sloppy argument. I also contrasted Tupac’s living with and seeing oppressed communities as opposed to Bono flying in for a photo shoot to say “how horrible!” In no way does that say anyone is “prone” to anything. Prove to me there is _any_ natural state people. Its impossible and therefore irrelevant.

    You should research your city’s history re: the Klan before tossing that word around.

  21. Mr. T (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 12:54 pm

    Hey Plum D – I was at your blog just a second ago and saw a 187 by your name. I’m new to the ways of the street, so explain something to me.

    Is the use of murder symbology (187 is the numeric code for the crime of murder used by law-enforcement officials, particularly in the state of California) part of your social commentary about the state of African-Americans today or does it just make you look “hard” or whatever the current terminology is?

    It just strikes me that people are all too quick to assign Tupac some sort of legendary status because he lived violently and died young. What did he actually accomplish?

    At the end of the day, MLK is remembered for the sum of the nonviolent, Civil Rights movement’s accomplishments, which were substantial, if not completely satisfactory 40 years later. May not be all that he was but it was his life’s work.

    Tupac’s life’s work was a mixed bag, full of violent imagery AND social commentary. Unfortunately, his life ended in a way that only supported most people’s view of him.

    If Tupac’s mother wants to erect a statue to her son and place it in a “peace garden” then so be it. I would never question this mother’s love for her son.

    But for you to attempt to shout down anyone who questions the idea of erecting a “peace garden” tribute to a man who was violent until his end is no better than the republicans calling questions about the Iraq war unpatriotic.

  22. Aradia (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 1:16 pm

    Oneside – you need to get a serious grip and calm down, breathe, then read – or review your level of reading skills. RECORD-BREAKING Hypocrisy? Get over yourself – do you know how each and everyone of those homeless people got onto the streets?

    AND WTF does the subject of homeless people have to do with Tupac’s violent messages?

    Also, it seems that you have the impression that I am afraid of homeless people. Where the F*&k did you get THAT from? Again – learn to read. I am from NYC and I have been approached by some of the craziest muthah F’ers out there and not ONCE was I afraid. You learn to deal with that when you’re from a city like NY.

    And FYI – BOTHERSOME means that they are ANNOYING. As in: panhandlers in NY don’t usually ask for SHIT, they let you walk buy and maybe say hello and see if you give them something. Panhandlers in ATL ask, then ask again, then curse you out when you don’t give them any money.

    Another FYI – I have heard Tupac many a time and I still hold to my opinion that he was not spreading anything positive. MAYBE you have a little too much in common with that negative outlook. I’d say so from reading your comments.

  23. aradia (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 1:19 pm

    Oh – and sorry, Andisheh, for communicating with oneside in comments to your post. I couldn’t see any other way ;-)

  24. jehad (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 4:00 pm

    hard to weed through all of this but has anyone noted that not only is Tupac’s mom doing the unveiling but this is the arts center and foundation she created upon his death…apparently trying to make good of a tragic event for her or some may say a tragic life. i believe she owns all the licensing to his music, films, etc and has used the proceeds to get kids involved in the arts. On its surface appears to be a noble cause. According to her, the Peace Garden at the center her foundation has built is designed as a place of reflection in honor of those who are no longer with us, including her son. Perhaps his presence there will serve as a reminder of the tragedy violence leads to…the willful, wanton destruction of a creative voice, caused by both his own misdeeds and those of others. or something like that. Kind of like how Clinton reminds us all that we can cheat on our wives by preying on 20 something year old bimbos and still keep our marriage going…wait…uh forget that…that analogy doesnt serve the point.

    From the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation’s website:

    “The Tupac Amaru Shakur Center for the Arts in Stone Mountain will eventually include a performing arts theater, museum, art gallery, community meeting space and classrooms. The Visitor Center will consist of a display gallery, rehearsal space for the annual Summer Arts Camp students, gift shop and TASFís offices. The general public will be able to visit and view various exhibits (including personal items of Tupac and fan art work, among other pieces), as well as buy Tupac and TASF merchandise.

    The Peace Garden will be a beautifully landscaped 6-acre site designed as a place of reflection in honor of those who are no longer with us. A bronze statue of Tupac will ultimately stand in the center of the Garden, inside a fountain in the shape of the gothic cross universally associated with 2Pac. The Garden will also consist of a donor platform, wooden pavilions and a variety of other fountains spread throughout.

    Ms. Afeni Shakur founded the TASF in November 1997 to carry on the legacy of Tupacís creative talents. The Foundation aims to provide top quality arts training to our youth from all backgrounds, primarily through its annual Summer Arts Camp. Students between ages 12ñ18 participate in intense training for 2ñ4 weeks under the direction of theatrical teachers and performers. TASCA has been designed as a way of maintaining that positive environment that allows students to gain an understanding of peer leadership, self-growth and discipline year-round.”


  25. Andisheh Nouraee (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 5:23 pm

    I actually address that in the piece I’m writing for CL next week, but the comments got, uh, sidetracked.

  26. plum drank (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 5:44 pm

    andisheh are you gonna talk about any of my points besides the ones you misinterpret to make yourself look good?? what the fuck is with cowardly posting TWO back-patting posts up top (with no comments turned on!! “cut his mic” – bill o’reilly), you can pretend i wanted to beat you down all you want but my comment about my street, my face refers to yalls continual misrepresentation of ATL and disconnect from anything but trips to ikea, bike fests and wine-tasting parties. believe it or not a 2pac peace garden can be something more important than an excuse for hipsters to sneer. i urge you to actually engage with the hoods around you and understand how much of a positive force this could be instead of just using it for some lame “gotcha” post about how awful it is to be surrounded by black georgians who dont understand things as well as you do. many great men have incidents in their pasts they would rather forget, and i believe pac’s mother is using all of the good in his life to fight against more of the violence that ultimately killed him and kills so many youths in america today. of everything going on in america is this really the shit you want to attack??

    as far as “talking points” i used it loosely to mean bullshit that republicans say, for example your boy aradia- “I avoided selling drugs and shooting people. I’m aware that everyone has different circumstances, but where there’s a will there’s a way.” that right there is a republican talking point! it aint racist to say that when you grow up with poverty and institutionalized racism then you might not immediately rise to the top of the cutesy blog post world or whatever the fuck you think black america should be doing. if racism, slavery, and white society got no influence on black life how do you explain the poverty rates, the disproportionate jail sentencings?? are black folks just born thugs, then?? but youve given up actually talking about pac’s actions now, and are tryna associate him with suge (who he hated and who probly killed him) and false ‘sexual assault’ charges (pac went to jail under sodomy laws that equate anal sex with sexual assault, the kind overturned in texas recently- “inappropiate touching of the buttocks” specifically, the same kinda shit the CIA tried to use against MLK!)(youre a damn fool if you think MLK never fucked a bitch in the ass) and pac had his own charities, he had his own youth organization, he worked in the community and his lyrics continue to teach new generations of kids about black history and black pride. he recorded an album called “one nation” to heal the community and help bring the 2 coasts together, but interscope refused to release it. he was on his way to a charity show the night he was killed.

    so using TWO blog posts after this to brag and boast about how you beat down the “racists” in the comments (“reverse racism”, another republican talking point!) and flipping that whole “wheres your tolerance now” whining about being threatened cuz somebody disagreed with you (yet ANOTHER republican arguing tactic) and looking at your old posts you can find similar inept beatdowns of black leaders like cynthia mckinney (one of the few democrats to attack bush over iraq BEFORE it was an election issue, and someone who continues to bring up key evidence related to 9/11 ignored by not only other politicians but the media at large) and al sharpton (a man with many personal flaws but has still fought for affirmative action, women’s rights, universal healthcare, black voter registration, and a strong community) while saying you supported the 1994 republican takeover of congress (headed by openly racist newt gingrich, who i will admit seems to have alot more in common with the georgia you represent than 2pac). do yall even mention black folks on this site except to smear them (see also tiffany brown)? do yall mention any rappers here except for offended-moralist attacks against them?? if you dont got shit to say bout 2pac but cheap-shots and unproven allegations (which you later retract) then i dont see why you gotta throw dirt on the name of a grieving mother (more republican tactics) and her son.

  27. jehad (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 5:46 pm

    yeh, there was some sidetracking going on. Interesting fare of conversation though. you look past the attacks and there’s some things to be least about perspectives. btw, best thing plum says is “survivors of katrina” …much better than refugees or even victims..anyone who lived through that is first a survivor.

  28. plum drank (unregistered) on September 14th, 2005 @ 5:47 pm

    by the way to the man who mentioned i used the term 187 on my website- youre right. it was there as a tribute to spice 1 and master p. but it is against the positive image i want to represent and i will change it.

  29. Mr. T (unregistered) on September 15th, 2005 @ 11:51 am

    Dear Oneside:

    I can tell by what you’ve written that you’re a child molester. A child molester, child molester, child molester.

    This is a fun game. As long as you’re labeling people racists just because they don’t believe what you believe, I’m going to label everyone that disagrees with me a child molester.

    Atlanta has a lot of work on its child molesting to do, myself included, but looks like those open to doing so aren’t around here.


  30. Tony Mc (unregistered) on September 15th, 2005 @ 5:07 pm

    More importantly he deserves the statue for being a dancer in Digital Underground!

    \Doing the humpty-hump right now

  31. hottie (unregistered) on September 21st, 2005 @ 10:23 am

    Tupac is a legend and will always b remeberd as 1 he’ll always live on through his music he gave people in the world hope that there was more to life he was trying to make the getto a better place. and with the sex charges use guy were talking about they could never find any evidence that she was raped it was probly just some girl hollaring for a doller and same fame

  32. jolly (unregistered) on September 21st, 2005 @ 3:29 pm

    tupac shakur was a legend , i dont accept all these aligation or sort of talk. may his soul rest in peace.

  33. Mr. T (unregistered) on September 21st, 2005 @ 3:59 pm

    I like aligators but I’m not sure what an aligation is.

  34. Skitzo (unregistered) on October 3rd, 2005 @ 9:53 am

    Fuck all the haters, I’m from the Dirty South but I got nothin’ but love 4 Pac. Puttin’ him up in a peace garden is a good idea…Pac sent a message. He’s a thug angel…he watches over all us thugs with God. I-town..Florida…holdin my shit down…239!

  35. clunkyrobot (unregistered) on October 18th, 2005 @ 11:52 am

    “Pac sent a message. He’s a thug angel…he watches over all us thugs with God. I-town..Florida…holdin my shit down…239!”

    hehe, most awesome comment so far.

  36. Brixton (unregistered) on November 22nd, 2005 @ 4:48 pm

    Mr.T, it amuses me how quickly you’ve resorted to childish insults in the face of intelligent argument.
    I have to say, Oneside has so far put together the most coherent, intelligent and best argument – as well as it being one I believe in.

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